Heinrich, Wilson face off in debate

>> kob eye witness news 4, presents the life u.s. senate debate. >> good evening. i am tom joles....  More »

>> kob eye witness news 4, presents the life u.s. senate debate. >> good evening. i am tom joles. welcome to the u.s. senate debate. our sponsor is aarp. we're glad they are with us. this debate is being simulcast on a radio partner, 770kkob. joing us on the stage we have democratic candidate martin heinrich and republican candidate heather wilson. and they are vying to repce jeff bingaman who is retiring. both candidates have agreed to the debate rules. each candidate will have one minute to make an opening statement. later, they will have one minute for a closing statement. the candidates will be given one minute to answer each question and then 45 seconds each for rebuttals. later, the candidates will be allowed to ask the other candidate a question which is often very enjoyable. the answers will be limited to one minute and each has 45 seconds for rebuttal. martin heinrich won the coin toss and has elected to go second. heather, please go ahead. >> Wilson: THANK YOU. we have two kids a the home, one about to go to college and another one who is queen of her universe in high school. i worry about that. i worry about whether there are jobs for them when they finish school and there is nothing more important in america today than moving forward towards strong economic growth and job creation. that means keeping taxes low. so that small businesses can inve and grow. getting rid of a lot of red tape that is coming out of washington and putting moratorium on job killing regulations and all of the above energy strategy, fastest way to american jobs is american energy. and it means foregoing across the board defense cuts that heinrich has supported so that we don't lose another 20,000 jobs next year. that is what i will do in the u.s. senate and i look forward to the discussion this evening. >> your opening statement. >> Heinrich: GROWING UP MY DAD was election, my mom worked in a factory. they worked hard and stretched every dime. there were tough times. so, i know what it is like to struggle in a tough economy. and i am running for the senate because i want our children, yours and mine, to inherent the kind of country that we all believed in growing up. an america where you prosper if you work hard and play by the rules. my priorities are new mexico's priorities, protecting social security and medicare. tax cuts for the middle class, keeping our promises to our veterans and making college more affordable for everyone. i come home nearly every weekend so i can hold job fairs, meet with new mexicans, so i can raise my family. i have always fought for the things that matter most to new mexicans and i'll continue to do that in the senate. >> Joles: LET'S GO TO FIRST question. u.s. deficit increasing by the second, threatening economic recovery, what would you as a u.s. senator do about taxes and what would you do about spending? we begin with martin. >> Heinrich: I THINK WHAT IS critical here is that we take a balanced approach. every single bipartisan group that has gotten together, whether simple son boles, has said you can only tackle this problem if you look at both side. if you increase revenues and you make cuts to existing programs. we're going to have to weather challenging cuts because spending is too high but also going to have to increase revenues. i think it is fair to ask people at the very upper income levels to shoulder the same responsibility that middle class families scholler today. it is not right that people like romney, who is worth hundreds of millions, pays 13 or 14% in effective tax rates while small business people and teachers pay much more. with a balanced approach, we can meet with challenge. >> talk about taxes and spending. >> Wilson: THIS IS WHERE WE disagree. he is holding the entire state hostage for a tax increase on the first of january, because he wants to increase taxes on the two upper brackets. half of the tack returns in those two upper brackets are small businesses. the engines of economic growth. we looked at what would be the impact of just increasing taxes the way congressman heinrich wants to do and we would lose another 4,300 jobs here in new mexico. i think what we need to do is extend all the tax rates that we have now and go through a year long process of tax simplification, take out almost all of the exemptions and special provisions, lower the rates and broaden the base and give ourselves a tax code that is pro economic growth, then we also have to control spending. and have spending growth that is lower than the rate of growth of our economy. we're also going have to reform some big programs and i believe that we need a balanced budget amendment to the constitution. >> i just saw you make a face over there. 45 seconds for rebuttal. >> Heinrich: WE HAVE A PRETTY simple proposition here. you can either embrace the kind of approach that wilson has embraced. she signed this pledge to support the cut cap and balance program. that is a tea party approach to balancing the budget. it has no new revenue, even for the wealthiest of americans and so draconian that it would require deep cuts in social security and medicare overtime. or we can embrace a balanced approach. that is what i support, i think we can go back to the kind of tax rates we had under the clinton administration when those upper income earners were doing well and entire economy was growing. we're going to have to make tough choices and a balanced approach is only approach i believe gets us there. >> your rebuttal. >> Wilson: IT IS AMAZING THAT you can stand here having voted for trillion dollar deficits for the last years, largest fastest debt increase in history and say that we have to control spending. you have done nothing to control spending over the last four years. and with respect to cut cap and balance it is amazing to me also that the idea of cutting wasteful spending, capping ability of congress to spend money we don't have, and balancing budget is extreme. it sets congress to set priorities, hand prioritize things like social security, medicare and education and that is why i support a balanced budget amendment to the constitution. >> Joles: WITH THE FISCAL CLIFF looming and many in washington including president saying if we don't go over the cliff we still need to cut defense spending, what would you as a u.s. senator do to save jobs at new mexico military bases and national laboratories? >> Wilson: THIS IS ALSO AREA where we strong disagreements. congressman heinrich was only member of our house delegation to vote for this process that will lead to a cross the board defense cuts starting in january. we have already lost 30,000 jobs here in new mexico since he went to congress. average household pay is down by $4,000 per family for take home pay. congressman lujan didn't vote for this, pearce didn't vote for it, but heinrich did. i will work to restore those defense cuts and avoid the devastating impact to national security and impact to jobs here in new mexico. >> Joles: MARTIN? >> Heinrich: WELL, FRANKLY IT is important to rember whose seat we're seeking to fill here. senator jeff bingaman said that version of what i voted for was a huge distortion. and it is. i voted to make sure as a country that we didn't default on our obligations. it was the tea party who forced us in the position of not passing a clean peace of legislation. and i think what is incredibly important is that if we bring a balanced approach to this and don't do cuts only approach, we can completely erase impact of sequestration. now i stood up to my own party and fought for bases and fought for our national labs. i opposed my own president when he said that we should put off funding the cmrr facility at los alamos. i wish heather wilson would have stood up and fought for national labs when the ryan budget was seeking to cut los alamos 17% or sandia 11%. >> Wilson: I VOTED AGAINST pelerines budget in the house in 2007. and as for standing up to your party on the national labs, you voted for the continuing resolution. you didn't even offer a single amendment for lift a finger to try to save it. i think that new mexico needs u.s. senator who understands new mexico's unique contribution to national security, and will stand up and fight for it. you voted for the across the board cuts, you didn't save the plutonium facility at los alamos, lost aircraft for the air guard here in new mexico and we now have smallest air guard of any state except guam. i think we can do better and i intend to in the u.s. senate. >> your rebuttal? >> Heinrich: THERE WERE 1000 people working at 150th before i was elected and there are 1000 people working today and they have a job because i stepped up and found them a new mission. when congress woman heather wilson failed to do that at the end of her term. no, they are not flying if 16's, c130's and others, but to me it is not just about the airplanes. it is about the people, about the jobs. it is about the people who are putting food on their family from those jobs and i will continue to fight for forward thinking, forward looking new missions to make sure that our installations, both defense and energy are strong well into the future. >> nearly half of the people in new mexico are hispanic. unm did a study, we reported just last week, that showed the second most important issue to hispanics in new mexico after economy is immigration. what do you think about amnesty for illegal immigrants and children who came here with them. >> Heinrich: I DON'T THINK WE need to embrace amnesty but we need a comprehensive approach to immigration reform. it is broken and has been broken for many years. wilson had a chance for over a decade to do something about that. when i was elected to congress, not only did i sponsor comprehensive immigration reform but i made the dream act one central tents of my term. we fought for the dream act because those are kids that represent best things about this country. believe of them don't even know another country and they are willing to serve in the military, get an engineering degree or become a doctor and give back to this community. i was disappointed that it took so long for my opponent to even take a position on the dream act. this is an issue that needs leadership and i have shown that leadership and we'll continue to fight for a forward thinking immigration policy. >> Wilson: I OPPOSE AMNESTY. i don't think it is fair to people who are standing in line waiting to come to this country and willing to respect our laws. i support legal immigration. and i actually think we need changes to immigration laws so that immigration is based more on talent and hard work and ability and skill so that we have a pro america immigration policy. with respect to children who are brought hereby parents at a young age, we need a solution to that problem. heinrich asked me if i would have been in the house would i have voted for the house version. the answer is yes. but, the problem is the bill never made it through the senate which is why we need bipartisan approaches and i look forward to working with others to make sure a law passes not just that a single affection can pass something through the house, that is the difference between the house and senate. with respect to my work in the house when what is there, priority when i was there was securing the border because of failure to secure that border overtime. that is now opened up opportunities to reform our immigration system. >> Heinrich: ONE OF THE FIRST things i did after elected to congress was appropriate funds to send border patrol agents to the border. that doesn't fix underlying issue. we are lucky in new mexico and have a proactive community. the faith community, the business community, the activist groups here have come forward and say we need the embrace comprehensive immigration reform. we couldn't get the dream act through the u.s. senate because the tea party had taken over to the point where republican u.s. senators were afraid they were going to be primaried for supporting a comprehensive policy. i think we need to send people to washington who stand up for common sense and get this done. >> Wilson: ACTUALLY THE PROBLEM in mid 2000's wasn't that, it was that we had failed to secure the border so that immigration reform really couldn't be done unless you took that first step. we started putting those resources in place in 2005 and have continued that and the number of people crossing the border illegally has gone down substantially. the u.s. needs to have effective control of its border. that opens up the possibility, i believe, going forward, for further immigration reform, not only to allow more people to come to this country who are highly skied, but also to be able to have a guest worker program, or the old program which worked well here in new mexico. >> tell us what has been said about you in this campaign that has irked you the most and why did it irk you? >> Wilson: I WOULDN'T SAY IRKED is the right word. there is advertisement that . >> Heinrich: THAT MR. HEINRICH is running that implies i don't care about people who depend on social security and medicare. i found that not only personally offensive and untrue but the reality is that my family depended on social security when i was a kid. i know what that is like to be afraid. and i think preying on peoples' fears is a new low and i think that was reprehensible to try to make people afraid for something that was false and that bothered me a lot. >> is there anything that irked you in the campaign. >> Heinrich: I HAVE GOT A pretty thing sn in the last few congressional races and i learned to use netflix so that my kids don't watch the commercials this time of year. i do stand-by my advertisements. i will tell you if you want to see the truth, just go out and get on you tube and type in her name and you'll see what is said about it. the committee to preserve social security and medicare, what they say about it, what alliance for retired americans say about it. it would impact social security. it would impact medicare. it would impact things like education and pell grants here in new mexico. i think we can take a better and balanced approach. >> 45 seconds for rebuttal. >> Wilson: YOU ARE IMPLYING something that is not true. and you have intentionally approved that. the cut cap and balance pledge is something that i completely support. and i don't see any problem with cutting wasteful spending and prioritizing medicare and social security. it will force congress to set priorities, just like all of us do, around the family dinner table so that congress stops spending money we don't have and get back to a balanced budget. there is nothing radical at all about that. and by preying on peoples' fierce, i know what that feels like and i know what it feels like to be afraid and dependent and i just think that is morally wrong. >> your response? >> Heinrich: I THINK THAT IF you want to look, there are plenty of places we can make cuts in our programs and one place i am not going to make cuts is social security and medicare. social security has been critical to many of our families and my family, too, my parents are very reliant on that program despite the fact they saved and they invested. but i am not going to balance the budget on the backs of our senior citizens. i don't think that is right and i think if we take a balanced approach, whether it is the kind of approach that domenici came up with or any of the other groups, you have to work with both sides of this equation. it is only reasonable and effective path forward and i think it is time that we actually produce results for the american people. >> Joles: WE ARE HAPPY THAT aarp is again co-sponsoring a prime time debate. joing us on stage is chairman of the group's legislative committee, mr. garza. go ahead with your first question. >> thank you. on medicare, this have been recent discussions about having seniors buy insurance from a choice of private insurance plans with a fixed contribution from the government to pay premiums. this is commonly referred to as the premium support plan. would you favor this approach instead of traditional medicare? >> Heinrich: ABSOLUTELY NOT. i will not see medicare voucherrized. i know that this plan is what paul ryan has bet his career on but it would immediately have negative impact on our seniors. i think protecting medicare is absolutely essential. it is why i cut subsidies to insurance companies so we could put more money back into medicare. that is not what you hear from my opponent, but we took savings from the insurance companies and we plowed it filling the donut hole and into preventive programs and extending the life of medicare. i won't see this program vouchered. my father has had a tough year. unfortunately he has used medicare a lot this year. it was there for him. it was there for my mother when she had to take over many of the family duties that he had previously filled. so, no, i won't support that plan. >> Wilson: MEDICARE IS important now and important in the future and we have to do things to save it. i actually don't like this part of congressman ryan's approach with vouchers. i do support medicare advantage. and that is a program here in new mexico that four out of 10 seniors choose to have. i was talking to mike knowles. he likes the fact that it is wrap around program. he doesn't have to deal with a lot of pieces and it works real well with his tri care. i support that program. martin heinrich is only candidate on this stage who voted to cut medicare by 700 billion dollars. in the healthcare act. now he says it went to insurance companies. he means medicare advantage. that is what he is talking about. he is going to deny seniors that. about 1/3 of it went to payments for hospitals and that is why between 15 and 20% of our hospitals here in this state are going to go under because of the healthcare act that he supported. and took 700 billion dollars out of medicare. >> Heinrich: I HAV NEVER CUT A single benefit under medicare and i don't believe in cutting benefits under medicare program. we added benefits that we paid for by eliminating subsidies to insurance companies that were pulling money out of medicare and into corporate profits. now, the ryan plan when it came out, i fought back hard against that too. unlike my opponent who is absolutely silent when the ryan budget plan came out. she wasn't there defending medicare. she said she didn't have to comment on it because she wasn't in the house of representatives. >> Wilson: WELL, I WASN'T IN the house of representatives but when i was, i voted against ryan's budget and i made clear that i had concerns on his approach to medicare. i have even more concerns about your approach and the fact that you'll stand here and say, we didn't cut a single benefit. what he cut was the payment rate to your doctor. and the payment rate to your hospital. 40% of doctors now won't take new medicare patients. and 15 to 20% of our hospitals are going to go under because of the slash in payment rate that congressman heinrich was responsible for. so, we'll all have benefits but we don't aye won't have a doctor and hospitals, particularly in rural areas. this is the reason that the healthcare act needs to be repealed and replaced and i will take that 700 billion and put it back in medicare. question. >> on social security, i have heard politicians talk about raising income level subject to payroll tax. or eliminating the payroll cap entirely. do you support either option to improve funding for social security? >> Wilson: THE MOST IMPORTANT thing with social security is that for those who depend upon it today or who are near retirement, that the check needs to be there on time and in full. there are three other principles i think are important when you deal with how do you save social security for future generations. one is that i think it needs to continue to be the safety net program. it is the defined benefit program. we don't want it to be part like your ira or 401k and invested in the stock market. it needs to continue to be that safety net. second, the solution for social security should be bipartisan. there are a couple of models, simple many son boles is one, but look at many what ronald raing a did back in 1988. we have to start now because the problem becomes worse as we go forward into the future. congressman heinrich recently as june said we don't need to deal with this now and he and i disagree. >> Heinrich: WELL, SOCIAL security didn't create our federal budget deficit. when congress woman wilson was elected, she inherited a balanced budget. we got to deficits from very specific votes. wilson voted to get rid of the pay as you go rules that had helped a democratic president and republican congress balance the budget. then she voted to put us a war in iraq without paying 4 it, a war in afghanistan. two tax cuts for the super wealthy without paying for it. part d, a program i am fond of but it should have been paid for. that is how the structural deficit was created. we need to fix that before we start using social security as the whipping boy for bad decisions that were made in her tenure. >> 45 seconds for rebuttal. >> Wilson: IT STRIKES ME THAT congressman, i don't think youened stand that social security is completely separate in the budget from all the programs that you just discussed. social security is a completely separate account and the problem with social security right now is that for the last two years, we have been paying out more in benefits than we are taking in in payroll taxes. it is a separate line on your paycheck. it doesn't go into the rest of the funds. it is completely separate. and it is in trouble. we're paying out more in benefits than taking in in taxes and by 2033, the year you retire, under your approach to do nothing, it means that seniors will open up their checks and find that instead of 1000, it is $750. that is your plan to do nothing and it will mean automatic cuts for every senior on social security. >> 45 seconds for rebuttal. >> Heinrich: WELL, HEATHER wilson repeatedly said she plans to make changes to social security. i would ask you, don't you deserve to know what those changes are going to be? trust us is not a policy. trust us is an approach to get past election and then you make policy. if we make any changes to social security fwe are going to tinker with it, that you deserve to know what the changes are going to be. i will continue to press congress woman wilson to know what plans she has, what specific changes she is going make to social security. >> the third and final aarp question. >> do you support the deficit -- reducing deficit without harming medicare and social security for current and future generations? >> Heinrich: ABSOLUTELY. we can do that if we take a balanced approach. if we bring new revenues in and we cut existing programs and we look for savings that are not rationing. i won't cut medicare's ability to produce results for seniors. i won't limit things that it can pay for. but, what i will do is do a smarter job, using every single medicare dollar. we can use electronic records to root out fraud and prosecute people who do that. we can make sure we pay our doctors and other providers in a smarter way. today medicare pays a volume based system. the more you order, the more you get paid as a doctor. that is not right. doctors should be paid a salary and they should get a bone fuss they produce high quality results. that would bring costs down, extending life of program without cutting benefitses. >> Wilson: I THINK IT SHOULD continue to be completely separate as it is now. the principles that guide my approach to social security and making sure that it is solvent for the long-term is no changes for those who are on or near social security today. it should be continued to be a safety net program, not invested in the stock market. approach must be bipartisan and boles and reagan are good models and we must start now. listen to what heinrich said in his answer. he didn't give one indication as to how he will approach saving social security about he says hit fines for the next 20 years 20 years from now under current law, and the plan he is now advocating, you will have 75% of the benefits because the trust fund will go broke. all of president obama's trust tees say we must address this now or else we will end up with social security recipients who are getting 25% less in their checks than they expect. that is his plan and that is irresponsible. >> Heinrich: IT WON'T TAKE decades for a program like cut cap and balance to start hitting sort security and medicare hard. that approach to balancing our budget is a far more serious threat to social security in the short term than anything coming down the pike several decades from now. the things that is driving our deficit deficit are decision, specific decisions that congress woman heather wilson made to help create the deficit. we can move forward but it has to be a balanced approach, even senator domenici embraced that. >> the cuts only kind of approach is disaster not only for medicare and social security but for the entire budget and state of new mexico. >> your rebuttal? >> Wilson: CONGRESSMAN, THIS IS important. social security is completely separate. it is not part of the regular budget. the money that comes in from social security from peoples' payroll checks can only be used for social security. the problem is that we're living longer and we have more retirees, the challenge is demographic so we are better off starting to deal with that today. all of the other things we have to do to balance our budget and overcome the fact that you voted for five trillion dollars of new debt over the last four years, we have to deal with that too. but it is completely separate from the solvency of pension and retirement system in social security. and you have to deal with that now because if we wait until the trust fund is empty, we're going to be in deep trouble and we will -- under current law, there will be a 25% automatic cut in benefits if we don't fix this. and i agree with president obama, we have to do this sooner rather than later. >> Joles: THANK YOU MR. GARZA and are aarp. >> we also asked kob viewers to submit questions through kob.com. here is stuart dyson with some of those questions. >> thanks tom. our first question comes from bosquearms. describe a time when you voted against the majority of your party because you felt an issue was so critical to new mexicans that party loyalty took second place. >> Joles: PEOPLE WANT TO KNOW. >> Wilson: I THINK THERE ARE A number of times where i demonstrated independence. let me give a couple of examples. when i was a freshman in house of representatives, i forced speaker of the house to pull a bill off the floor because it would have been devastating to national laboratories. i voted against, only republican to against the spending bill, i think, in 2004, because i didn't think it treated education properly. there was insufficient funds for title i for our schools, for kids low income. third example was children's health insurance. i was one of a handful who voted to over ride veto of the president at that time, because i felt as though children's health insurance was important. i got a pretty long history of standing up to my party and even being punished for it from time to time but that is who i am and i think new mexicans deserve an independent leader they can trust to stand up for them. >> Heinrich: WELL, BACK WHEN president obama suggested that we should defund the cmrr facility at los alamos national laboratories, most of the democrats on the armed services committee supported that. i did not. i supported that program. i felt it was absolutely necessary for us to meet our obligations under the new start treaty and i voted to extend that program to refund that program. i also stood up when i was a freshman in congress, stood up to speaker, to the majority leader and said enough with the congressional pay raises especially in the mid of a recession. not right. despite the fact that coverage had for years hidden pay raises and very hard to follow procedures, we stopped congressional pay raises since i have been there. heather voted for pay raise after pay race. 30,000 over the course of her career. i stood up to my party and i'll continue to do that. >> Wilson: WITH RESPECT TO YOUR vote in armed services, you voted to authorize the spending and then you voted to zero it out. like creating a checking account for the new facility in los alamos and then voting not to put any money in the account. as a result. 700 people have loss their jobs up in los alamos and another 1000 won't be hired next year because you didn't effectively fight for that. with respect to pay raises, you well know that all six of those votes have been debunked. never voted to increase my pay. the very week that you were sworn into congress, you got a $5,000 pay raise. did you cash the check? >> Heinrich: WHEN IT CAME UP for the annual pay raise in congress, for those of us who were elected that year, we stood up and said enough. it is not right anymore and we actually sponsored legislation to get rid of the cola adjustment. you have to vote for each individual pay raise. now, the previous congress voted yes. our congress did not. and not only that that year but the year afterwards and to this day. i want to return too to the issue of the labs. when we really needed congress woman heather wilson to stand up and fight for national labs, when the vice presidential nominee was fighting for huge cuts at lastal most and san deashe was nowhere to be heard. she was silent. that speaks volumes. >> our second question from our viewers? >> comes from rio rancho. christine, how do you plan to change education in america, middle elementary and high school. it seems as if it is getting worse, including teacher pay. >> start by repealing no child left behind. it is simply is not working for new mexico schools. it is not working for new mexico students and hit is not working for new mexico teachers. it was a top down washington prescribed approach that congress woman wilson embraced when she was in congress but it is not working. it is not working for my kids many we need a different approach. we're not going to get away from testing but we shouldn't compare this year's with last year's fifth graders. we should do testing at beginning of the year that tells teacher where each individual child is so that they can taylor instruction and then do testing at end of the year to know what kind of incremental and growth based progress they have made over the course of the year. >> now i see you making a face. what is that about. >> Wilson: IT WAS A SMILE. the know child left behind act was reauthorization of elementary and secondary education tact allows federal funds to go to schools in new mexico for kids low income and kids who have special needs. i strongly support that federal funding to aid education but i think the decisions about how that mon shoul be made, should be made at local level. what no child left behind did was push decisions down to the local level and allow teachers and principals to move money around between any federal account. that is flexibility. in terms of testing requirements for a year now, new mexico has been exempt from those and has its own plan, a to f grading system. those testing requirements should have been tweaked and replaced probably five or six years ago. what they did do in the first five years is narrow the gone between the rich kids and poor kids, anxious low and minority with respect -- anglo and minority with respect to achievement and that is what we want to do. >> Heinrich: I URGE YOU TO GO out and especially if you have kids in school, ask them about the last decade of service within public school and state of new mexico. ask those teachers what impact of no child left behind was. did it put more control in power of local officials, teachers and school boards. i haven't met a single teacher that said that. they said it put lists on requirements on us with no help to actually meet any of those things and it took the creativity out of one of the greatest jobs in the world, teaching our children. i think we can do better than that. i think we can do it in a way that supports our children and our teachers and our new mexico schools. >> . >> Wilson: BEFORE NO CHILD LEFT behind if there was 800 different funds in federal law, you couldn't be use money that was curriculum development to help out with reading instruction in elementary school. what it gave was a lot of flexibility on any of those programs so local school district could move money around but what it did say was we want the schools to be accountable to community for results. now, how those results are reported and whole issue of annual ayp or whatever that is, was something that didn't work and they were right to set that aside. we now have a different system, here in new mexico, but the important thing is to look at results not just for kids like you and i have with middle class kids, two parent families but the kids first generation americans and were being left behind under the previous system. >> stuart our third and final viewer question. >> don hall from rio rancho wants to know, where do you stand on renewable energy programs and related tax incentives? >> Wilson: WE NEED A BALANCED long-term energy plan for this country that increases american made energy and gets energy from secure sources of supply and keeps the costs down because american energy is the fastest way to american jobs. here in new mexico, we produce coal, oil, national gas, we enrich uranium and get plenty of sun and i am all much abefore energy kind of gal. heinrich voted for cap and trade, businessest tax on energy. it costs 11,000 jobs in new mexico and increases costs of electric bills by 1000 a year. he also said that coal is a fuel of the past. well, if coal is a fuel of the past then low priced energy bills are a thing of the past and jobs at the mines are a thing of the past. you i believe we should have all of the above energy strategy, cost ring man heinrich spent the last four years chasing a green dream and that is going to cost us all in jobs and electric bills. >> Heinrich: NOT A DREAM FOR the thousands of people working in new mexico today because of those policies. in fact today, despite the fact that we have been ming coal for hundreds of years, there your four times, almost five times as many people working in renewables directly in the state of new mexico as in that industry. now, there is nothing wrong with ming for coal. my father was a miner and grandfather was, that is hard work. but when it comes to setting policy, we need to be looking to the future. we need to be investing in infrastructure, los alamos said if we had adequate infrastructure, we could grow 25,000 new jobs in clean energy with marrying natural gas generation which is affordable with wind and solar and producing portfolio that gets over more domestic and clean. >> Wilson: THE OF LOS ALAMOS didn't say 25,000 it said 1200 jobs for 20 years. i am fine with that. i support renewable energy. the difference between congressman heinrich and myself is that he supports renewable energy and not coal, oil and national gas. 70% of our electricity in this state comes from clean coal fired generation. and we can get it at 5 or 6 cents an hour. it is not only the direct jobs in the coal mines that are as stake, because by increasing the price of energy through owl the green legislation that congressman heinrich wants to pursue, we'll have fewer jobs here because one of the big drivers of whether a manufacturing job is going locate here is low cost energy. the renewables that he is pursuing cost two or three times what clean coal fired generation does. we need secure sources of supply and low cost. >> Heinrich: WELL, WE HAVE quadrupled rigs produce in the u.s. in the last few years and yet your still paying through the nose at the pump and i don't think it is fair to support the kind of policies that congress woman wilson has supported year in and out in her over decade in congress. she supported tax subsidies for exxon and conoco, companies that made over 100 billion dollars in cumulative profits in the last year. it is time to take those subsidies and put them to work on the jobs of the future. and, yes, i will continue to invest in geothermal, wind, fish sennie, solar and. >> clearly the outcome of this year's election will have a big impact on young people as they look to the future. , we have had one student from the ap government class here at sandia to ask one question. joing us a student and i understand your concernedbout how to pay for college and as a father of college students, i share that concern. >> thank you. it is argued that the government's involvement in pell grants has led tuition fees to increase. does the government involvement pe ll grant support higher education, do you propose any other programs that will help to offset high loan amounts for college graduates. >> Heinrich: I DO SUPPORT THE grants and i think they have been critical in the state for many students especially those that don't come from a family that already benefited from higher education. when the ryan budget sought to eliminate enormous amounts of funding for the grants, i actually at 3:00 in the morning offered very last amendment to the ryan budget to put funding back into pell grants and we paid for it by cutting administrative costs at the department of education and yet all the republicans still voted no. we also cut the banks out of loans, government loans, to students, absolutely critical, because it saved so much money that we could put back into individual's read cases, making sure that those-- making sure loans were low cost and instead of siphoning off the money for the banks. >> Wilson: I STRONGLY SUPPORT the grants and always have but i think you have made a very good point here and something that i talked about some of the universities here in new mexico. every time the pell grant goes up, the cost of college goes up that much or more. i think the universities particularly public universities need to spend more time looking atow to control the escalating costs to college, because if you look at cost of college when i applied to college or when heinch applied to college and inflation rate for college education, it is nowhere near, i mean, it is two or three times more than household incomes have gone up or how the minimum wage or average salary has gone up and it is pricing people out of higher education. i think we need to look as a community at how to control the costs, particularly at public universities so that college continues to be accessible and affordable. >> Heinrich: THIS IS A BREATH of fresh air because we agree on something. we do need to make sure that our public universities are really thinking about the decisions that they make, investments, infrastructure investments they make, what they are charges in terms of tuition and making sure they are focus wag they are doing on core mission, not trying to be everything to everyone, because when they do that, it drives up the cost of tuition within those institutions. and we can do a better job of keeping those costs down and it should beur job at the federal level to partner with our great institutions here in new mexico, state and tech and unm to make sure it is possible. >> i owe you a rebuttal. >> Wilson: I DON'T THINK I HAVE too much more to say. i do think that it is worth pointing out there have been times in the past when i served in congress where i opposed my own party with respect to education. when you look forward in the future of the state, one of the things that is going create another american century and keep us ahead of competitors not only in other states but nations, is to have a well educated citizenry and that in my view is a role of government and it is something that i am willing to support in the u.s. >> as i mentioned at the top of the debate, we made time for candidates to ask each other one question. martin, what is your question for heather? >> Heinrich: WE HAVE TALKED A little bit about this already, but, obviously, you know, much of this whole national election cycle has hinged on social security and medicare. i told you a little bit about how important it was for my own family to be able to utilize those programs and despite the fact that my parents worked hard and saved and invested they still rely on social security to have the kind of middle class retirement that they enjoy. my question is, it is the urgency is not undoing the things that put us in structural deficit but to fix social security today for any outstanding potential revenue falls that program. what specific kinds of changes would you suggest? at one time you said you were open to private accounts. today you say you're not but rather than just say a pros and say trust me, i'll tell you after election, your there specific things would you want to change about social security? >> with respect to your comment about -- if you're going to quote me, i appreciate if you're accurate. what i said was personalization. at the time, we had a budget surplus and we were talking about how to protect social security. one of the things you were discussing was there being account with your name on it. so that it couldn't be used for something else. that is what i meant by personalization. but, as i said before, i think there are some principles that would drive how i look at this. one is that those were on social security or near retirement should have checks on time in full. second, it should be safety net program and a defined benefit program not a contribution program. third, solution must be bipartisan, start with simpson boles and reagan. fourth, we must start now. contrast that with what you said, which is do nothing and let the trust fund go dry, so that then we have automatic 25% cut in benefits. i think tha would be a disaster for social security. >> 45 seconds. >> Heinrich: WHETHER YOU CALL it personal accounts or private accounts or privatization it doesn't change what it is. fundamentally changes the contract and fabric that we have made through our social security program. what i am saying is we need to address the very serious fiscal situation we have now. and we need to address the issues that are most urgent and pressing us towards a budget deficit that is unsustainable. we should focus now on a balanced approach and not a tea party cut cap and balance approach that will be devastating to new mexico's jobs, devastating to social security and medicare overtime. i think we can do better than that. >> Joles: HEATHER, YOUR rebuttal. >> Wilson: WHAT THAT TELLS ME, he either doesn't understand that social security is separate from the rest of the budget or e believes it is okay to let it go down to zero. i think that is irresponsible. and so do the people who are running social security, all of whom are appointees and in the annual report on the trust fund for 2012 said we need to address this as as soon as possible, because if you diminish the amount in the trust fund if you get the year you retire, there is automatic tut in benefits and it is a lot easy to address this now than it would be 20 years from you in or 15 years from now or 10. that is why one of the principles that i think we need to have here is we have got to move forward and save social security for those on it today and those out into the future. >> you get to ask martin a question. go ahead. >> Heinrich: MARILYN AND DER son owns two taco bells she told her employees she was going to keep them on. narrow the profit margins and they would make it together. she tells me she is awake at night because she knows when the healthcare act comes into effect, she is going have to layoff or move to part-time 26 of her employees to get down before that -- below that magic 50 number where she doesn't have to provide health insurance, because there is only so much profit in a .99 taco. what would you advice her to do as far as layoffs. should she layoff the kids? should she do last hired first fire, should she exempt single parents or kids who depend upon the job? how should she layoff people that the healthcare act forced her to make decisions. >> i am not going to give business advice not knowing the individual situation but we did exempt small businesses up to 50 employs from complying with the most basic provisions within the length aye legislation. that lengths was above addressing the fact that new mexico has highest uninsured rates in the nation. it was about people like the father who came up to me and said, you know, when my daughter comes of age, she is not going to be able to get health insurance because she has epilepsy, preexisting condition. in a previous debate, she said, could you have sent that person to the state high risk pool. no, we fixed that situation and, no, high risk pooling at the state does not even accept people with epilepsy under that program. >> Joles: YOUR REBUTTAL. you have to be denied insurance and that is the way you move over there. when you are denied, insurance companies in new mexico routinely refer you over to the high risk pool. there is option, but you failed to answer the question. this is a woman who owns a small business with 75 employees. and she has kept them on in a tough economic time. she has got to layoff 26 people or put them back to part-time because of the healthcare act that you passed. because there is not 95 professor it in that.99 taco and her competion or the small businesses below that 50 person cut off s. she has to lay people off and you won't even take responsibility for what you are doing to small businesses across this state. >> Heinrich: SMALL BUSINESSES are critical but so are peoples' healthcare and they should have access to healthcare. if i have to pay 1.10 for a taco instead of '99 then i'll pay 1.10 for a taco. we need to stand up and changes things that are hurting our state. we have children who don't have access to healthcare and working people without healthcare. then they get their primary care in the emergency room and we all get it in our taxes because they get charged $10,000 or $20,000 for something that should have been treated when it could have cost $200. i think we can do better than that. >> Joles: WE HAVE COME TO THE end of the debate. each will have one minute for a closing statement. martin heinrich you go first. >> Heinrich: THANK YOU TO ALL of you. my priorities are new mexico's priorities. protecting social security and medicare. tax cuts for middle class. keeping promises to vet ansae answer and making college more afford. >> she supported wall street bail out and bush tax cuts that exploded deficit and now wants to give even more tax breaks to millionaires and congressman wilson supported a radical plan called cut cap and balance that would require deep cuts to social security and medicare. let me be clear, i will never balance our budget on the backs of our senior citizens. you know, i come homer in nearly every weekend so i can meet with new mexicans and hold job fares and raise my family. i have always fought for the things that matter most to the people of new mexico. if you'll give me the chance to serve in u.s. senate, i will continue that fight and hon oured to have your vote. (applaude). >> Joles: LET'S MOVE ON. >> one minute for a closing statement. >> Wilson: OVER THE LAST FOUR years we have loss 30,000 jobs here in new mexico. cost of groceries is up, gasoline is up, cost of college education is through the roof. and our household income on average has gone down $4,000 per household. congressman heinrich wants to put in a cap and trade system that will increase cost of electricity by about $1000 per household. and will cost us another $11,000 jobs, 11,000 jobs. he wants to raise taxes on two upper income bracketses half of which are small businesses which will cost us another 4,300 jobs here in new mexico. and he voted for the this across the board defense cuts that cost us 20,000 more jobs here in new mexico. i think we need a u.s. senator who will stand up and fight for the small businesses that are struggling with the tough decision they have to make because of the lousy policies have you put into place and forced them into. we need to get back to strong economic growth and job creation and that is what i am going to do in the u.s. senate. (applause (. >> Joles: THANK YOU AUDIENCE for holding your applause. thank you out there for joining us for tonight's u.s. senate debate. in 12 days, make your voices heard, please vote. join us on election night for a complete coverage and cob tv m the meantime, see you on the news at 10:00. i am tom joles, good night.  « Less